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我完全不够一个学问家。
我承认自己是一个有思想的人，
并且是本着自己思想而去实行、实践的人，
独立思考，表里如一。
Confucianism and Buddhism are my basis.
Liang:I mean，in talking with you，I hope that you will understand the sources of my thought.The basis of my thought is Confucianism and Buddhism.This is the most important thing.That is more important than understanding my past.I hope you can know more about Confucianism and Buddhism.I want to tell you all about my Confucianism and Buddhism.I mean，I will put the emphasis in our conversations on this，rather than on my personal affairs or my opinions.Because Confucianism and Buddhism are my basis，if you can understand the basis，that would be best of all，the most important thing.Not only do I hope this for you but also I hope that Europeans and Americans can better understand these two schools of thought:Confucianism and Buddhism.
Alitto:Mr.Liang，has your interest in Buddhism and Buddhist studies been rekindled，or increased，as you have grown older?At the time of the May Fourth Movement，you publicly abandoned Buddhism and converted to Confucianism.
Liang:That is not relevant.You may say I abandoned Buddhism，but I really didn't abandon it.Originally I did want to leave the secular world and become a monk.What I abandoned was my plan for leaving the secular world and becoming a monk.But in my thought，on the philosophical level，I did not abandon Buddhism.
Alitto:Oh，I now understand a bit better.Actually，I also wrote about the same thing in the book [The Last Confucian:Liang Shu—ming and the Chinese Dilemma of Modernity，called The Last Confucian for short hereafter]，that is，you hadn't completely abandoned Buddhism，but you felt that the problems of the time didn't need Buddhism as much as Confucianism.So because of this，you began to study Confucianism.
Liang:Let me explain myself.When I was young，around sixteen or seventeen，I wanted to become a monk.I didn't give up this ambition until I reached the age of twenty—nine.If I wanted to become a monk，I could not get married.But a person is not only composed of a brain.He is more than just thought.He cannot leave his corporal body.If I had really followed my ambition early on and had gone to a monastery，there probably would have been no problem，and [my life]would probably have been most congenial，and I would have lived out my life quietly.
壹我的思想的根本就是儒家跟佛家
梁：我的意思啊，我们彼此谈话，我还是希望你了解我的思想的根本，我的思想的根本就是儒家跟佛家。我的意思就是，如果能够对我的根本的思想——就是对佛家跟儒家多了解，比什么都好，比了解我的过去的一些事情都重要。我希望于你的，就是多了解儒家，多了解佛家，我愿意把我所懂得的儒家跟佛家说给你听。我的意思是把我们的谈话重点放在这个地方，而不是重在我个人的事情。因为佛家的跟儒家的是我的根本，所以如果了解这个根本，是最好，最要紧。不但是我期望于你，并且我是期望欧美人能够多了解这两家，一个儒家，一个佛家。
艾：梁先生，您现在年纪很大了，就是说，对佛教、佛学的兴趣有没有好像恢复了或者增加了？就是说，这个五四时代，您就好像是放弃了佛学而转入儒学。
梁：那个都不大相干，说放弃，也没有放弃，不过是，原来想出家做和尚，把这个“出家做和尚”放弃了，在思想上还是那样。
艾：啊，现在明白一点。其实我书里也是这么写的（指《最后的儒家——梁漱溟与中国现代化的两难》，以下简称为《最后的儒家》），就是说您不是完全放弃，不过觉得目前的问题不太需要佛学，比较需要儒学。因为这个关系，您就开始研究儒家。
梁：我说明我自己啊，我是年纪很小，比如说十六七岁就想出家为僧。那么这个志愿到了29岁才放弃这个念头，不出家了。出家当和尚不能娶妻子，可是一个人呢，他不单是一个有头脑、有思想的，他还脱离不开身体。假定啊，如果真是从自己的当初的那个志愿，很早就出家到庙里去了，大概也没有什么问题，也可能很相安，可能没有什么问题。
But before I could leave the secular world and enter a monastery，I was drawn into Peking University to teach philosophy by Mr.Cai Yuanpei.Because of this，my life underwent a change.What change was this?I didn't go off to a monastery，but instead I scurried off into the world of learning and the company of intellectuals.It is difficult to avoid having a spirit of competition.This desire to excel over others arises from the corporeal.If I had been as I first wanted，very early leaving secular life for a monastery，that could have been peaceful and stable，walking a calm path.But when I got to the university and into the company of a lot of intellectuals，debates developed easily，and created a desire to excel over others.This desire to excel over others arises from the corporeal.The problem of sex easily arises from the corporeal.A monk does not need to get married；he is able to live in a monastery and can completely forget [sex]，and can completely want no part of taking a wife.But when I got to the university，and was together with intellectuals，often I had this desire to excel over others.This was a corporeal problem.Once it arose，I also wanted to marry.
不过没有很早地出家，就被蔡元培先生拉去，在北京大学要我讲哲学。走上这样一步，就起了变化。走上这一步就是什么样子呢？就是不是去到庙里当和尚，而跑到知识界，跟知识分子在一起。同知识分子在一起，他难免就有知识分子对知识分子这种好胜，就是彼此较量，这个好胜的心是从身体来的。如果是像当初想的，很早出家到庙里去，那个可以也很相安，很平稳，走一种很冷静的路子吧。可是一到大学里头，同许多知识分子在一起，彼此容易有辩论，就引起了好胜之心。这个好胜之心是身体的，是身体的他就容易有那个两性的问题。和尚是不要娶妻的，他在庙里头能够住下去，可以完全忘掉，可以完全不想娶妻。可（我）到了大学，同知识分子在一起，常常有这种好胜之心，这个是身体问题，身体问题来了，这个时候也就想结婚了。
Buddhism
The Buddhist attitude toward life
Liang:A person is not just of this one life.A person's real substance is transmitted from the distant past down through time.He has a very long and distant past.So his so—called "fate"is none other than his past and his background.A man's life and destiny is decided by his past.
Alitto:Is this related to Buddhism?
Liang:Yes.Buddhism is……"Life，divided into endless instants，is at best similar and continuous；the meaning of life is neither interrupted nor persistent."It is linked，part of a continuous process.The me of today is like the me of the past，but isn't identical.Strictly speaking，the me of a previous period and the me of the present are different entities.So a person，from the time he is a small child growing up to old age—like me，I'm over 80years old—is changing every instant，different every instant.As for this difference，simply speaking，in one aspect，the body is different；the brain is different；the influence from outside has long been different.So all is different，but within the differences is some similarity.So we call it "similar and continuous."In the phrase "neither interrupted nor persistent，""nor persistent"means "not perpetual as before，"or you could say "not permanent."So "neither interrupted nor persistent"does not mean permanent，but it is still uninterrupted.This is to say that the present me is not the me of just now，they are not the same thing，but there is no interruption either—it still continues on.That life is "similar and continuous"not only means that there is similarity and continuity between the me of one year old and the me of two years old，and the me of three years old；it also means that after death this similarity and continuity is not broken.This is the Buddhist attitude toward life.
There are three realms （trailokya）talked about in the Buddhist scriptures.This is the Buddhist attitude toward life.The first is called "the realm of sensuous desire"（kamadhatu）—the primal wants for food，drink and sex.This is all desire.The second is called "the realm of form"（rupadhatu）.The third realm is called "the formless realm of pure spirit"（arupadhatu）.The Buddhist scriptures have it this way，but it seems that this is not a theory created by the Buddhist scriptures.Rather，it seems that this is a common belief in India；it is commonly held that there are these three realms.The primal desires exist only in the realm of sensuous desire.It does not exist in the realm of form.In the realm of form there is still gender difference，but no food or drink，no intercourse between male and female.In the formless realm of pure spirit，there is nothing at all.The Buddhist scriptures contain such a theory.
贰佛家
佛家对生命的一个看法
梁：人不是就是这一生，人是从很远的流传下来的，他的过去很长、很远。所谓定力，不是别的，就是他的过去、他的背景，他总是要受过去的背景的决定。
艾：那这是跟佛教有关系的观念啊？
梁：对。佛教它叫做“相似相续，非断非常”。“相似相续”——它是连续的，相似就是了，今天的我和昨天的我很相似，已经不同了，只是相似。严格地讲，前一个时间的我跟现在时间的我已经不同了，一个人从一个小孩长大，像我八十多岁，时时刻刻在变化，时时刻刻在不同。这个不同一方面简单地讲，他自己身体就不同了嘛，头脑不同了，外面给他的影响也早已不同了，所以都是在不同之中，但不同之中也有一定的相似，所以叫“相似相续”。“非断非常”——“非常”，就是不是常恒如故，中国人本来是“常”跟“恒”连着的，也可以说“恒常”，也可以说“常恒”。“非断非常”，不是常恒的，可又不断，“非常”就是现在的我跟刚才的我不是一回事了，可是也没有断，仍然还是相续的。“相似相续”不单是说我一岁的时候跟我两岁的时候还是相似相续、三岁的时候相似相续，不单是如此，是说死后也没有完。这个是佛家的对生命的一个看法。
佛典里头有三界——“界”就是“世界”的“界”——第一个叫欲界，欲就是有欲望，想要饮食男女，这个都是欲望；第二个是色界——“颜色”的“色”；第三个是无色界。佛典里这样说，好像不是佛典创立的说法，而是印度好像普遍有这个信仰，普遍地说有这个三界。饮食男女，在欲界才有，到了色界没有了，色界还有男女，没有饮食，没有男女的相交，到了无色界那就是什么都没有。佛典里头有这个说法。
Hinayana is leaving the secular world.
Liang:We were just talking about my desire，when I was young，to become a monk，so I can be considered a Buddhist in certain respects.But a Buddhist must be viewed from two aspects and，you could say，must be discussed in two parts.Primitive Buddhism，which we can call Hinayana，emphasized leaving the secular world.What does "leaving the secular world"mean?"To leave the secular world"means to leave "Production and Annihilation"（or Birth and Death；utpadanirodha）.What do we mean by the "world"（the finite，impermanent world）?That is，the endless cycle of birth and death.In Buddhist terminology this is called the "Wheel of Transmigration"（samsara），meaning that this life is all similar and continuous.
The Hinayana school laid down three conditions.The first condition is all phenomena （sarva dharma）are impermanent （anitya）.That is，there are no permanent，constant things.Everything is in constant flux.The second point is that all dharmas are non—self；they have no ego.All phenomena and all dharmas are different.The first point is—"Whatever is phenomenal is impermanent."All are flowing，in flux.That is，the cycle of life is like flowing water，in continuous flux.So，they say，"Whatever is phenomenal is impermanent."The second is that no dharma has an ego.There are two kinds of dharma.One is effective or phenomenal dharma （Samskrta Dharma）.The other is dharma not subject to causation，condition or dependence （Asamskrta Dharma）.The first is the dharma of birth and death （utpadanirodha）.The second is the eternal，supramundane dharma，"immortal—neither dying nor being reborn"（anirodhanupada）.Some people ask，"Can the finite impermanent world have something permanent and eternal in it?"The Buddhist answer is that if there are the birth/death cycle there would be something that neither is born nor dies.Birth—Death and No—Birth No—Death are a single thing，not two separate entities.That is to say，the dharma of birth and death and the dharma of the eternal are reducible to each other.
小乘佛教主要是出世
梁：……我刚才提到过了，从小的时候就想出家当和尚，所以我可以说是一个佛教徒。佛教徒得从两面看，也可以说从两层上来看。佛教，原始佛教普通管它叫小乘教，小乘教主要是出世。什么叫做出世呢？出世就是要出生灭，（出）世间。怎么样叫世间呢？就是生生灭灭，生灭不已。那么在佛家，它就说是轮回。轮回，它是说生命是“相似相续”。
这个小乘自己规定下来三个条件，一个条件就是“诸行无常”——“常恒”的“常”——没有常恒的东西，都是在变化流行中，这是头一个。第二点是“诸法无我”。头一句话是“诸行无常”，第二句话是“诸法无我”。“诸法”跟“诸行”不一样了，头一句是“诸行”，第二句换作“诸法”。因为“诸行”是流行，就是说生灭，生灭不已。生灭不已好像是水流一样，流行变化。第一点是讲流行变化，所以叫“诸行无常”。第二句话是“诸法无我”。“诸法无我”说有两种法，所以加一个“诸”，“诸法”不是一种法。“诸法”是哪两种呢？一种叫做“有为法”，一种叫做“无为法”。“有为法”就是生灭法，“无为法”就是不生不灭。那么有人问：这个世间还有不生不灭的吗？佛家回答：有生灭，就有不生不灭。生灭、不生不灭是一回事，不是两回事。这是说“有为法”和“无为法”是一而二、二而一。
The first condition is all phenomena （sarva dharma）are impermanent （anitya）.The second point is that all dharmas are non—self.No matter which of the two is concerned，there is no ego.Man is one of "all living beings"（sattva）.From the lowest organism—the most primitive amoeba—to man，all develop from having "egos."All must eat.All must take from the environment.All organisms，from the most primitive right up to man （as the highest），all share something.What is it?They all seek satisfaction from the external，from the environment.In the Buddhist view，this is a mistake，a loss of their basic nature.What is the basic nature?That is "satisfied and content with their own nature，with no dissatisfactions."This is Buddha.Don't regard Buddha as a god or a ruler.It's not like that.So what is Buddha?Buddha is the thing—in—itself of the universe.The nomenon of the universe can be said to have all inside.All things are inside.The phenomena are all inclusive.Since everything is inside，it has nothing.Nothingness.According to Buddhist doctrines，there are two aspects.One is embracing all phenomena in the cosmos；but all the same it is ultimate nothingness.These are two aspects of the same thing.The Buddha is to leave the world.The mundane world is an endless cycle of birth and death，and this，together with the eternal，perpetual aspect of the world，although seemingly two entities，in reality is the same thing.Didn't I just mention the Hinayana Primitive Buddhist doctrine，the doctrine that "all phenomena are impermanent"and that "nothing has an ego"?The third doctrine is Nirvana—calm and quiet，free from temptation and distress.This is Hinayana.The three Hinayana principles are the only complete Buddhadharma （the law preached by the Buddha）.
Mahayana—why I am both a Buddhist and a Confucian
Liang:The Mahayana school，building on the foundation of the Hinayana，had a great reversal，a major revision.The Hinayana is the Way of the Arhat （the perfect man of Hinayana）.The Mahayana is the Way of Bodhisattva.The Mahayana does not escape from the mundane world.The Mahayana doctrine are these two principles:"non—abandonment of sentient beings"and "non—residence in Nirvana."What does this call for?The doctrine is that the Buddha will return to the mundane world.The Hinayana wants to avoid the trouble of endless cycle of birth and death.The Mahayana has already transcended the endless cycle of birth and death，and so could enter the eternal realm.But that seems，to quote a Confucian saying，"to attend to one's own virtue in solitude—to protect oneself，but alone."The Bodhisattva and the Arhat are different.The Arhat solves the problem for himself，and strives for purity and salvation for himself.The Bodhisattva does not abandon the rest of living things.The Bodhisattva wants to return to the mundane world and already has the possibility of not being born nor dying.But the Bodhisattva still wants to return to the world.Why?Because of non—abandonment of living things...That is to say，the Hinayana rule is to go beyond this world；the Mahayana，given a choice，still returns to this world.This is the Mahayana Way.
第一条是“诸行无常”，第二条是“诸法无我”。无论“有为法”或者“无为法”，都没有“我”。众生——人也是众生，从那个最低等的生物——原始生物阿米巴，都是从有“我”来的，它都要吃东西，都要向外取。一切生物，从原始生物起一直到人——人是最高的啦，都有一个相同的一点，哪一点相同呢？就是向外取足——足是满足，向外边来满足自己。向外取足，都是错误，在佛家看都是错误，都是丧失了本性。本性是什么呢？本性是自性圆满，无所不足。这个自性圆满，无所不足，就是“佛”。这个“佛”，不要把它看作是一种什么神啊，或者是什么上帝啊、主宰啊，不是那回事。“佛”是什么呢？“佛”是宇宙本体，这个宇宙本体也可以说是什么都在内了，万事万物都在内了，五颜六色很复杂的都在内，可是都在内了，它也就是什么都没有了。按佛家的道理说，就是这两面，一面是森罗万象，一面是空无所有，这个两面是一回事。“佛”就是出世，世间就是生灭，所以出世间，就是不生不灭，而生灭跟不生不灭好像是两面，好像是两个东西，不是，是一回事。原始佛教第一是“诸行无常”，第二是“诸法无我”，第三呢，它叫“涅盘寂静”。这个是小乘，小乘具备这三点，才是佛法，缺一样不是佛法。
大乘佛教——我为什么既是一个佛教徒，又是一个儒教徒
梁：大乘佛法、大乘佛教是在小乘的基础上，基础就是刚才说的那三句话，在小乘的基础上来一个大翻案。小乘是罗汉道，大乘是菩萨道。大乘道是在小乘道的基础上来个大翻案，就是它不出世，它的话是这么两句话，叫做“不舍众生，不住涅盘”。“不舍众生，不住涅盘”，它要怎样呢？它要回到世间来，它不舍开众生。小乘好像是躲避开生死的麻烦，大乘呢，它也已经超出生死了，可以到了不生不灭。但是呢，引用一句儒家的话——“独善其身”，菩萨跟罗汉不同，罗汉好像自己解决了问题，求得清静，菩萨是不舍众生，他要回到世间来。他已经具备了不生不死的那个可能了，但是，他还要回到世间来，为什么？因为他不舍众生。……这个就是说，小乘以出世为规矩，大乘则出而不出，不出而出，仍回到世间来，大乘是这个样子。
So，in my own case，I admit to being a follower of Buddhism；I would not deny being a follower of Confucius either.Why?Why don't I deny it?Because this Way of the Mahayana Bodhisattva—I want to follow the Way of the Bodhisattva—is "not to abandon sentient beings"and "not to reside in Nirvana."So I want to go into the world.Because of this，all through my life，for example，everyone knows that I worked in rural reconstruction，or rural movement，and that I worked in politics as a mediator between the two parties （that is，national affairs），especially when Japan invaded China，so would this be considered "leaving the mundane world"or not?This [activity]does not in the slightest go against "leaving the mundane world."Because this is what?It is the Way of the Bodhisattva.[1]This is not Hinayana.Hinayana wants to go into the mountains，to some monastery and not emerge.Mahayana is "non—abandonment of sentient beings"and "non—residence in Nirvana."You can say that I am a Confucian，a follower of Confucius，and you can say that I am a follower of Siddhartha，because there is no conflict or contradiction [between the two].
Alitto:No conflict between the two.This is a relatively new way of putting it.For example，during the Tang Dynasty，or before then when Buddhism had just reached China，there was conflict between the two.So you are saying……
Liang:Insufficient understanding.The enlightened person has no problem.So，it seems that the Song Confucians had rejected Buddhism and Daoism.I think that it was a question of insufficient understanding.For the wise，enlightened person，there is no obstruction to understand；he sees everything clearly.If there is obstruction，it is that you create an obstruction for yourself.But as a matter of fact，it is not necessary.The enlightened person transcends this.Quite a few of the Song Dynasty Confucians like Master Zhu （Zhu Xi）rejected Buddhism and Daoism.
那么就说到我自己，我自己承认我是个佛教徒，如果说我是一个儒教徒我也不否认。为什么呢？为什么也不否认呢？就是因为这个大乘菩萨。我是要行菩萨道，行菩萨道嘛，就“不舍众生，不住涅盘”，所以我就是要到世间来。因此我的一生，譬如大家都知道我搞乡村建设、乡村运动，我在政治上也奔走，奔走于两大党之间，就是为国家的事情，特别是在日本人侵略中国的时候，所以这个算是出世不算是出世呢？这个与出世一点不违背，因为这是什么呢，这是菩萨道，这不是小乘佛法，小乘佛法就要到山里头去了，到庙里头去了，不出来了，大乘佛法就是“不舍众生，不住涅盘”。说我是儒家、是孔子之徒也可以，说我是释迦之徒也可以，因为这个没有冲突，没有相反。
艾：没有冲突，这个说法是比较新的。比如唐朝的时候，唐朝以前佛教刚到中国的时候，是有冲突啊，那您说……
梁：不够通达，高明的人通达无碍。所以像是宋儒吧，就有点排佛，排斥道家，在我看就是不够通达。通达的人呢，无碍，没有滞碍，什么事情都看得很通。有碍，是你自己在那里给自己设了妨碍，原来是可以不必的，高明人他就超出来了。宋儒像朱子他们，朱熹他们，有不少儒者都排佛呀，排道家呀。
Discipline，meditation，wisdom &the stories of "Stick"and "Shout"in Chan School
Alitto:Yesterday you said that you were a Buddhist all along.[2]
Liang:Because very early when I was quite young，a teenager，I wanted to become a monk.
Alitto:Thereupon to the present you have preserved your original……
Liang:It's still that way，but now I don't have to become a monk.In fact，I still want to.If I would be allowed to go live in a mountain monastery，I would be quite happy.
Alitto:Yes.Do you still meditate or do Buddhist cultivation……?
Liang:The basic way involves three words （Liang writes out the words for Alitto to see）:discipline （sila），meditation （dhyana）and wisdom （praj?a）.These are disciplines that must be maintained.There are many rules of discipline.For example，one cannot marry.If you have already married，you must leave home and become a monk.Killing is forbidden，eating meat is forbidden，and so on.There are many prohibitions.Only after observing these prohibitions can you achieve meditation （referring to the trance state that we just mentioned）.So only after you have observed the prohibitions can you achieve Samadhi.Only through this can you achieve wisdom.Buddhism does not hold what we commonly regard as intelligence and wisdom to be "wisdom."Buddhism regards that kind of intelligence as merely a kind cleverness and perceptiveness，not genuine wisdom，not the Great Wisdom.Great Wisdom comes only through Samadhi，and through it one has a breakthrough in consciousness.
Of course，everyone knows that in the past there were thirteen different schools of Buddhism in China；an important and well—developed one was Chan.[3]In Chan Buddhism there is a saying that expresses its special feature or characteristic.What was the Chan school's special feature?It's "not relying upon language for explanation."So，language and writing are not needed；it is not based upon language and writing.The Chan school was quite well—developed.There was a book called Jingde Records of the Transmission of the Lamp.Later there were many more Sequels to Records of the Transmission of the Lamp.Altogether there were five books combined to constitute the Five Lamps Combined.All tell Chan school stories.Laymen can't understand these stories.
“戒、定、慧”与禅宗故事中的“棒喝”
艾：您昨天说，您一直都是佛教徒。
梁：因为我很早、很年青的时候，十几岁的时候，就想出家。
艾：于是到现在您还是保存原来的……
梁：还是那样，不过现在是不必出家了。其实还是想出家，假如说是让我去住到一个山上庙里头去，那我很高兴。
艾：是。那梁先生还打坐啊，修佛的……
梁：本来按佛家它有三个字，叫做“戒、定、慧”，这三个字——“戒、定、慧”，就是一定要守戒律。戒律有好几条，比如说是不能娶妻，如果娶了妻之后也要离开家，出家为僧嘛。还有不杀生、不吃肉等等。戒有好几条，从“戒”才能生“定”，“定”就是刚才说的入定。一定要守戒才能够入定。由“定”才能够生“慧”，“慧”是智慧。普通我们的这种聪明智慧，在佛家不认为是智慧，这个算是一种智巧，不是真正的智慧，不是大智。大智一定要从“定”才有，从“定”才能够破悟。
当然在佛家，大家都知道，在中国过去曾经有十三宗，宗派有十三宗，很重要的、很发达的是禅宗。禅宗有那个话，讲出禅宗的特色、特点。禅宗的特点是什么呢？叫做“不立语言文字”——立是“建立”的“立”——不立语言文字，言语、文字都不要，不建立在语言文字上。禅宗在中国很发达，有一个书叫做《景德传灯录》，后来比这个《景德传灯录》还多，《续传灯录》，一共陆续出有五本，合起来叫《五灯会元》，都是讲禅宗的故事。在那里头的故事，外行人不懂。
For example，a famous successful Chan master is called "Most Virtuous"（Bhadanta）.So one Chan Buddhist went to see the "Most Virtuous."As soon as he saw him，the Most Virtuous struck him with a stick，and he understood.The man understood.Other people don't understand this matter.This is a Chan story.This is called the "Stick."There is another called the "Shout."A pilgrim went to the Chan Most Virtuous for instruction.He didn't say a word，but gave a great shout.The pilgrim also understood.These kinds of stories are in the Records of the Transmission of the Lamp…….The Chan school does not rely upon language or writing，and two sides can influence each other.An old successful monk who has achieved enlightenment can have influence on a newly arrived person，and make him able to achieve enlightenment，but he does not use language.An enlightenment of language is still on the conscious level.Only [an enlightenment]that is life—changing in a fundamental way can be considered true enlightenment.
The supreme liberation is becoming Buddha.
Liang:The learning of the ancient India was not really something you could talk about，or something the brain could comprehend，or something that resides in consciousness.The basic nature of their learning was to fundamentally transform one's life.It is not a kind of idle talk for the mouth and brain.They have something called "yoga，"in Chinese called yujia.Each school's yoga，although on the surface similar，is different.What is the similarity?It is to achieve liberation or release from the life of this mundane world.It causes one to undergo a basic transformation so that one is no longer an ordinary person.This is called zhengguo—the fruits or rewards of each stage of attainment.Each school has its own zhengguo.Each is similar in form，but different in actual content.
So，as for my own view，as a Buddhist，I would say that Buddhism，in terms of the fruits or attainments，has never gone astray，and has always reached the supreme liberation.What is the supreme liberation?Becoming Buddha.So，Buddhist books and sutras are different from the writings in which we ordinarily record our thoughts，our consciousness.They have hard content，practical things，i.e.，transformation of one's life.A human is no longer human.There are various stages，the highest being transformation into Buddha，Buddhahood.From the bottom to the top there are ten stages.Each of the ten stages is called a di.[4]So，of Buddhist scriptures and sutras，there is one very famous and very important:the Yogacarabhumi，a work of more than 100volumes.The message is，to reach Buddhahood，you must practice yoga.Someone who practices yoga is called a yujiashi.Each stage，one after another，advances upward.The eighth stage is a Bodhisattva.The tenth stage is Buddhahood.
比如有名的、禅宗很成功的人，叫禅宗大德——“道德”的“德”，另外一个禅宗的，去见那个禅宗的大德，他一来见这个大德，大德就打他一棒，他就明白了，那个来的人就明白了，旁人看不懂怎么回事，这是禅宗的故事，这个叫“棒”。还有“喝”，就是来一个人见这个大德求法，他什么话也不说，大喝一声，那个人也就明白了，如此之类，都是在那个《传灯录》上传说的故事。……禅宗是不立语言文字，彼此可以互相影响。一个老和尚，已经成功的，已经悟道的，他对一个新来的人，可以对他有一种影响，让他也能够开悟，但是他不用语言开悟。语言的开悟，它还在意识之中，而真的开悟，是让你生命起变化，你的生命根本起变化，这才算。
最高的解放就是成佛
梁：古印度人的学问，不是在口头或是头脑、在人的意识上，不是这样。它的学问的根本，就是要人的生命根本起变化。它不是一种在头脑、口头的一种空谈。这个他们叫做yoga，中文翻作“瑜伽”。印度各宗派有各宗派的“瑜伽”，相似而不同。不同，可是还是有同的地方，因为相似嘛。就是什么呢？就是他们所说的，要从世俗的生命里头得到解放、解脱，让人根本起变化，不再是一个普通的人，这个他们叫做“证果”——证是证了，果是结果。所以印度各宗都有各宗的证果，很相似而不同。
比如照我说吧，我站在佛家的立场，我认为佛家在证果上，是没有走入偏差，是一直达到最高的解放。最高的解放是什么呢？就是成佛。所以佛家的书、佛典，跟普通我们由自己的思想意识写出来，不一样，它有很实在的东西，实在的东西就是实在的生命变化。那个人不再是人了，那个人已经最高，就是成佛了。这个从低层到最高层，它分为10层，这个一层它叫一地——就是“土地”的“地”，十地就是10个阶层。佛经有“论”——“议论”的“论”，有一部很著名的、很要紧的书，就叫做《瑜伽师地论》，这个书有100卷之多，它就是讲要成佛，要做这个功夫，做瑜伽的功夫。做瑜伽的人，就称瑜伽师，瑜伽师从低到高，一层一层的，地位不同，所以叫《瑜伽师地论》，总共十地。到了八地——一共十地——就算是菩萨，八地菩萨，十地也就是成了佛。
Yesterday we talked about the three things:discipline （sila），meditation （dhyana），wisdom （praj?a）.You must first observe the disciplines，for only then is it possible to enter into meditation.Only by doing this can you achieve wisdom.These are only three things.Usually they say there are six paramitas [almsgiving，patience，zealous progress，discipline，meditation，wisdom].That is，aside from discipline，meditation and wisdom，there are three others.One is dana （almsgiving），which means you can give everything away，not retaining anything.One is called virya （zealous progress）.The sixth is praj?a （wisdom，banruo）.[Mr.Liang was speaking of the six paramitas，and left out "patience"（k?anti）in the listing:almsgiving，patience，zealous progress，discipline，meditation and wisdom；he repeated wisdom （hui），that is，banruo.]One must practice the six paramitas.Afterwards，your life is transformed.So，the important essential significance of all of this is transformation，or elevation of one's life.Complete transformation is，level by level，attained at the eighth stage，[5]which is the eighth stage of the Yogacarabhumi，and at the eighth stage one can become a Bodhisattva.Attaining the tenth stage，one can become Buddha.[6]